Tag Archives: FLDS

communication, condescending twatbags, Duggars, narcissists, religion

Easy for you to say, armchair quarterback…

Thursday already! This week is flying by, which is a good thing. Tomorrow is the big day. I don’t usually start packing before the morning of departure or maybe the night before, if we’re leaving early. For this big trip, I started filling my new suitcase on Tuesday. I am very ready to get out of here, even if there’s a part of me that kind of dreads the logistics. But I think I have most everything planned appropriately.

We’ll take Noyzi to the Hundehotel tomorrow morning, then head for the airport in advance of our early afternoon flight. It’ll be my first airplane ride since November 2019! By tomorrow afternoon, we’ll be in Oslo, the first stop of our multi-city Scandinavia/Baltics tour. 😉 I know it will be over before we know it, so I hope to savor everything… but I also know myself, and I’m sure there will be first world problems to complain about. I’ll try to confine them to my blogs.

And since we aren’t on vacation yet, allow me to offer some observations I’ve made since yesterday. Wednesday’s post was about the “right to complain” and how complaining doesn’t necessarily make a person a “karen”. And how I’m not a “karen” because I think the term “karen” is stupid and needs to go out of style. 😉

I’ll admit, I was a bit all over the map yesterday, because I was overwhelmed with examples for my post. That’s a problem, but it’s less of a problem than not having any examples to write about. Then, maybe you might have some trouble explaining exactly what you mean.

Today’s post, thankfully, does offer a good example of what I mean by its title. That is, it’s easy for people to pass judgment and get on a moral high horse about some things, when they aren’t actually in a given situation, and won’t suffer any hardships for advising someone to do what they think is the “right” thing to do. Once again, I’m going to bring up the Duggar family.

In the Duggar Family News Facebook group, the group leader, Pickles, shared some commentary from someone who used to work on 19 Kids and Counting. The person whose comments were referenced wasn’t identified, but it was someone who spent a lot of time around the Duggar family.

One person in the group wrote that crew members who filmed everything were complicit in the abuse, since they stood by and allowed all of this stuff to happen, but said nothing about it. She wrote:

The crew witnessed girls being forced into arranged marriages, forbidden to use birth control and then pregnancies with no prenatal care and agonizing childbirth. They suffered for days without proper medical care. The crew saw children that were not allowed to go anywhere without chaperones. They saw substandard teaching and educational materials because they were not allowed to go to school. The network constantly allowed them to praise their ATI and IBLP training sessions. The crew saw that their patriarch had total creative control. The crew saw girls made to wear long skirts with long uncut stringy hair that were constantly being slut-shamed. They saw girls that were forced to cook, clean and raise their siblings while the boys played. They saw the constant abuse of women and girls due to their Christian beliefs. The crew was silent and complicit.

As I read the above passage, I couldn’t help but think that it would be very difficult for the crew to do anything about what they saw. As Pickles pointed out:

Yes, but is any of that reportable to child protective services? In this country kids only need to be fed and have their basic needs met. It is sad sometimes that we can’t do more.

And Pickles is right. In many places in the United States, all that is necessary is that children have their basic needs met. We may not agree with how other people raise their children, but that doesn’t mean that the government has the right to intervene. And, honestly, as much as I don’t like seeing children raised in cults, I also think that there’s a slippery slope. A lot of well meaning people think they’re doing good, when they don’t have the whole story… or they think their way is automatically always the *best* way.

People often think they are above reproach, as they point the finger at other people. They never seem to realize that the standards they want to impose on other people could just as easily be imposed on them. Who’s to say that while you point your fingers at people you think are doing wrong, that certain other people won’t be pointing at you and saying the same thing? Would you want them to be able to dictate what’s right, and what’s not?

The original poster’s response to Pickles was this:

My belief is that the standard should not have rested with CPS regulations but rather with doing the right thing for women and girls. The crew should never have participated in promoting this patriarchy.

Who’s to say what is the “right thing” for women and girls? Those of us who were born and raised in western cultures often think our way is the best way. I think Americans, in particular, are guilty of trying to impose our mores on other cultures, thinking the standard way we do things is the way everyone should do them. But, if you look at other countries around the world, you realize that when it comes to oppressing females, the Duggars’ ways are actually pretty lenient! I mean, I haven’t heard of any of the Duggar girls being held down and having their clitorises cut off by their aunties, right?

And secondly, has this poster considered that by “not participating in promoting the patriarchy”, the Duggar insider would have aided in keeping all of this stuff hidden? It probably would have been much easier for Josh Duggar to keep abusing people if he hadn’t come from such a famous family. Moreover, television work was this person’s livelihood, and TV jobs are, presumably, not that plentiful. It’s easy for some random person on Facebook to condemn the Duggar Family TV show insider for not “stepping up” and “refusing to promote the patriarchy” when it’s not the rando’s paycheck at stake.

Besides… everyone who watched the Duggars on TV saw this stuff going on every time an episode aired. No, we didn’t see the unedited parts that the TV crew saw, but we saw enough of it to speak out about it, if we were so inclined. Most of us didn’t bother.

I remember back in 2008, when the FLDS sect at the Yearning for Zion Ranch in Eldorado, Texas got raided. So many relatively “normal” people were glad to see it being raided, because they were absolutely sure the children in that sect were miserable and being abused. And, if I’m honest, I think a lot of the kids in that sect probably were experiencing what a lot of us would consider abuse. BUT… that lifestyle is what they knew, and their abusers were their family. When the children were eventually reunited with their mothers, there was no mistaking the joy on the children’s faces.

When you’re a child, you won’t necessarily see CPS workers as heroic when they yank you out of the only home you’ve ever known. Moreover, sometimes kids who are removed from abusive homes end up in foster homes that are as bad or even worse from where they came. Read up on the Turpin siblings’ hellish experiences with foster care for some verification on that. I’m not saying that calling CPS is never necessary or lifesaving for abused children, but foster care and government intervention are certainly not panaceas against preventing or stopping child abuse. Like it or not, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar are the parents to that huge brood. We may see them as awful parents, but they’re still the only parents their children have.

This doesn’t mean that I support the Duggars’ way of doing things. I am absolutely sure there’s a legitimate hotbed of abuse in that family. I doubt that Josh is the only one who did pervy things, either. However, I do think it’s a lot to expect random people to intervene/be heroic, especially when they don’t have the whole story, haven’t been asked to intervene, and are relying on a paycheck. Because while it’s very noble to think that we all have our principles, when it really comes down to it, people have basic needs that have to be fulfilled. It’s hard to be tough when you realize that speaking up or speaking out could lead to unemployment.

My husband went to war with a man who was later outed and very publicly fired from the Army for abusing troops in Iraq. Bill was similarly abused by this man when they went to Iraq a couple of years prior. Bill didn’t say much to Army officials about what happened in that war zone because he wanted to stay employed and promotable, and he did not want to be labeled a complainer. If he had spoken about the abuse, maybe he could have prevented his former boss from abusing other troops. But, there’s also a good chance that he would have been punished for being vocal about the abuse, and his boss would have still gotten ahead. It’s easy for those who aren’t directly faced with a dilemma to say what they think should be done. It’s much harder to take those actions when it’s your ass on the line and you have other people depending on you.

I am a big believer in speaking out and taking action when it’s possible to safely do so. However, I am also a realist, and I am wise enough to know that speaking up and taking action isn’t always something that is easily done without severe reprisals. And, unfortunately, when you’re dealing with powerful narcissistic types like Jim Bob Duggar, Donald Trump, Bill’s “war buddy”, or even his ex wife (when the kids were minors), you find that doing the “right thing” is very often easier said than done.

So no, I don’t blame the Duggar TV show insider for not “refusing to promote the patriarchy” and “refusing to take action” on behalf of the Duggar daughters. That would have been a tall order that probably wouldn’t have ended with good results. But I am glad to see people like Jill, Jinger, and Amy Duggar standing up now, and speaking out against the abuses perpetrated in the name of “Christianity” and Bill Gothard’s IBLP cult.

I think being married to a man who attracts narcissists has made me more aware of what is at stake when a person confronts one. The bigger and more powerful they are, and the more money and prestige they have, the harder it is to confront them. And while it’s easy to armchair quarterback– I do it myself sometimes– the reality is, when it comes down to it, we all have to watch our own backs first. You can’t help someone else if you’re not wearing your own oxygen mask, so to speak. 😉

Hopefully, we won’t be needing any oxygen masks when we fly to Norway tomorrow. 😀

As I posted earlier… my blog may be less attended while we’re away, but I will bring my laptop and see what I can do. I hope you’ll wish us luck!

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book reviews, LDS, religion

Repost: Sam Brower’s Prophet’s Prey…

Here’s a reposted exmo lit review for those who like that sort of thing.  It’s yet another review of a book I enjoyed and don’t want to have to review again. It was originally written for Epinions.com in November 2012 and appears here “as/is”.

I have been interested in reading about the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-day Saints (FLDS) for several years, even before the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado, Texas was raided in the spring of 2008.  My fascination with fundamentalist Mormonism comes from being married to an ex Mormon.  The mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) does not claim any kinship with the FLDS sect, which parted ways with the LDS church mainly over the issue of polygamy.  They are separate entities, with the FLDS sect mainly operating in the twin cities of Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona.  Other branches are located in Texas, Mexico, and Canada. 

Having already read Jon Krakauer’s book, Under the Banner of Heaven, I was intrigued when I saw that he had collaborated with author Sam Brower in writing the 2011 book Prophet’s Prey: My Seven-Year Investigation into Warren Jeffs and the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-day Saints.  I knew if Krakauer had anything to do with the book, it would be well-researched and well-written.  So I ordered it for my Kindle.  A printed version is also available.

The premise

Sam Brower is a private investigator and Mormon convert who moved to Utah after having lived in southern California for many years.  He got involved with investigating the FLDS sect in 2004, when a family asked for his help in extricating themselves from the FLDS.  He accepted a payment of one dollar, which he, in fact, had to loan to the family because they were too poor to pay him.  When they became his paying clients, Brower was able to work on his clients’ behalf. That’s when he began to uncover Warren Jeffs’ amazing fiefdom which had been allowed to exist largely unmolested in Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, Colorado.

Brower became familiar with the people involved in fundamentalist Mormonism and had his eyes opened to the extreme control Warren Jeffs, the so-called FLDS living prophet, maintained over his flock.  He learned of girls as young as twelve being “married” to men in their 40s, even though these men already had other wives.  Brower writes of how members of the FLDS were compelled to do whatever Warren Jeffs demanded of them, lest they lose everything.  Jeffs was unconcerned about and unconstrained by federal law.  He ran his compound as if it existed entirely seperate from the rest of the United States.  Over seven years, Sam Brower learned about it all and wrote about his experiences in a comprehensive and well-written account.

My thoughts

I have read several books about Mormon fundamentalists, so I was already familiar with some of the sects’ practices and beliefs.  Nevetheless, it was interesting to read Sam Brower’s account of following the FLDS.  He writes in a personal tone which comes across as both matter-of-fact and occasionally disgusted.  I was definitely interested when he wrote about some of the techniques he used to get information and stop FLDS people from harassing him as he went about his duties. 

Sam Brower is clearly no friend to Jeffs.  He writes in vivid detail about watching Jeffs being loaded onto an airplane in Utah, escorted by Texas Rangers on his way to Texas, where he would stand trial for raping minors.  Jeffs is described as a bit of a nerdy pipsqueak, and yet he was able to command his followers to do his bidding.  I had a hard time reading some of the chapters, especially the one that had to do with Jeffs’ declaration that no FLDS family should own a pet dog and the ones having to do with young girls being forced to marry middle aged or even elderly men. 

Brower includes commentary about the raid on the Yearning For Zion Ranch as well as the court case that followed the raid.  He writes about the incredibly incestuous nature of FLDS families, many of whom are intermarried and interbred.  Brower explains how the children, particularly the young mothers, who were taken from the ranch made it very difficult for investigators to figure out exactly what was going on.  He also writes a great deal about the way members of the FLDS sect use government programs and funding to expand their empire.  And he makes it clear that this sect has been allowed to do these things unbothered for many years– in part, because in Utah, there are many people who are related to FLDS members and are ambivalent about prosecuting them for breaking laws related to polygamy.  Brower also includes photos, which were clear as a bell on my iPad.

Overall

If you’re curious about the FLDS sect and want to know more about Warren Jeffs and his followers, I think Prophet’s Prey is an excellent book to read.  Brower is a good writer and has the backing of Jon Krakauer, who is also an excellent writer.  This book held my intention and informed me.  I think it rates five stars.

As an Amazon Associate, I get a small commission from Amazon on items sold through my site.

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Duggars, narcissists

“He’s just a little boy… let’s not condemn him to a life of fundie drudgery yet!”

Yesterday, I was hanging out in the Duggar Family News Facebook group when someone shared a cute picture of two of the Duggar grandchildren. I believe it was a picture of Josh’s second daughter, Meredith, and Jessa’s eldest child, Spurgeon. I think both kids are very cute, but Spurgeon appears to be especially adorable, despite his unfortunate name, which alternately reminds me of sturgeon or spooge. A lot of the people in the Duggar group called him “Spud” for short.

Anyway, I posted that I think Spurgeon is super cute and will be a “heartbreaker” when he gets older. Innocent enough comment, right? It’s the kind of thing people often say about attractive children. I didn’t realize what I wrote was controversial, but apparently, it was.

Here’s the conversation that ensued:

I was a bit non-plussed that my original comment, that I think Spurgeon is a “cutie” and will be a heartbreaker, turned into a prediction of the boy’s future. Spurgeon is only four years old; he turns five in November. And yet people in the Duggar group are already condemning him to a lifetime of being his grandfather’s “slave”.

“Here’s you some candy…” (actually, I have seen the candy challenge done by a lot of Mormons, too.)

Frankly, I find that thought very depressing. People in the Duggar group follow the pregnancies of the Duggar children with intense devotion and seem to cheer whenever a new pregnancy is announced. However, it seems that a fair number of them believe that the offspring of the Duggar “kidults” are doomed somehow. What a sad and limiting thought that is. Basically, a large group of people strongly believe that these kids have no minds of their own and no ability to make their own choices.

And yet, here’s Jill Dillard, wife of Derick Dillard and once considered the biggest Kool-Aid drinker of the bunch. She’s sending her son, Israel, to public school. She has a nose piercing, wears pants, and has even been photographed wearing shorts, sleeveless tops, and swimwear. Yes, it’s true that she and Derick are no longer welcome to come to the Duggar compound uninvited, but they are clearly making their own choices.

Jeremy and Jinger Vuolo, likewise, were able to escape Arkansas and live on their own out in California. They’ve been married a few years now, yet Jinger is only on her second pregnancy. She wears pants, has cut her hair, and colors it. It’s obvious that Boob no longer completely runs her life.

And finally, there’s Joy Anna Forsyth, who married her husband Austin a few years ago. Austin makes his own money flipping houses. It looks like they’ve largely removed themselves from the hopelessly dull Counting On series and are putting up their own videos on YouTube, for which they probably get paid directly.

I think these two might be living their own lives now.

But even if I’m wrong about Jill, Jinger, and Joy Anna, and their lifestyles are still completely under Boob’s control, I still think it’s within the realm of possibility that Spurgeon or any of the other Duggar grandchildren will bust out on their own and make their own choices. It’s happened in many families that are mini-cults.

Look at the people who have managed to escape Warren Jeffs, and other FLDS sects. I know I read a lot of books by women who were once sister wives– Irene Spencer’s excellent book, Shattered Dreams: My Life as a Polygamist’s Wife, comes to mind. She was the second wife to Verlan LeBaron. Her sister wife, Susan Ray Schmidt, wife number six to Verlan, also wrote a book called His Favorite Wife: Trapped in Polygamy. I’m sure many people thought that Irene and Susan were trapped for life in the Colonia LeBaron FLDS polygamist nightmare, but they weren’t. They escaped and made new lives for themselves. There is absolutely no reason to believe that any of the Duggar grandchildren or children can’t also escape. In fact, if I were a betting woman, I would bet there will someday be a scandalous tell all about life as a Duggar. I bet there’s already a book in the works as I type this.

If there’s one thing I have learned from Bill’s experience with his hyper-controlling, narcissistic ex wife, it’s that people who are caught in these kinds of controlling groups DO sometimes wake up and take control over their own lives, even if the source of control is a close relative. My husband’s daughter did not speak to him for many years, mostly because her mother told her not to and she’d been fed a lot of lies. A lot of people thought it was hopeless that Bill would ever speak to his daughter again, let alone know his grandchildren.

I always somehow knew younger daughter would eventually come around. I figured she would do it before her older sister would, simply because she had a stronger personality. But I knew it would happen someday that she and Bill would speak again. I’m grateful that my initial predictions weren’t completely what came to pass. I figured she’d get in touch to spite her mother, because I was under the mistaken impression that she was just like her mom. I thought that she would try to use Bill, like her brother did. It turns out that, as far as we can tell, she’s much more like Bill, which is a wonderful blessing.

I still have hope that older daughter will also come around someday… but if there’s one thing Bill and I have BOTH learned, it’s that being “disowned” is not the end of the world. Yes, it’s extremely hurtful to be cast out, but the pain is definitely survivable. Some people truly would rather go through the pain of being disowned than surrender their free will to someone else. Many people are determined to make their own decisions in life, and choose to break out of extremely controlling family systems and do what they want. There is absolutely NO reason to believe that one of the Duggar grandchildren won’t do that.

Boob can’t control them all forever, and who’s to say that someone even more narcissistic or toxic won’t come along push him out of power? There are simply too many of them. Even Fred Phelps, creator of the damnable Westboro Baptist Church, was eventually ousted from his own family created church fiefdom. It takes a lot of energy and stubbornness to control people, and the older and weaker a controlling person gets, the more likely it is that they’ll eventually be pushed aside by someone younger and stronger. Everyone– even Jim Bob Duggar– has a match. Moreover, most of us have never met the Duggars and only know about them what we’ve seen on TV and read in the media.

I truly hope that any of the Duggar children or grandchildren who want to live life on their own terms will eventually be able to do so. I refuse to sell any of them short. I disapprove of making predictions about how a child will turn out, particularly when the child is as young as Spurgeon Seewald is. He’s only FOUR. A whole lot can happen in fourteen years, when Spurgeon will be considered an adult. Let’s give him a chance to grow up a bit before we make predictions about his future.

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religion

Just heard about Roy Jeffs’ suicide…

Roy Jeffs, for those who don’t know, is one of Warren Jeffs’ sons. Warren Jeffs is currently in prison for sexually abusing his child brides. Roy Jeffs was born on June 5, 1992 to Warren’s third wife, Gloria Barlow. He committed suicide on May 29th, 2019, just days before his 27th birthday. Roy Jeffs was notable because he was treated even worse than most of Warren’s other family members, forced to separate from his mother at age 14 and go work in one of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ construction companies in Wyoming.

Roy Jeffs left the FLDS in 2014, realizing that he would never be able to please his father. He came out about how badly he and his mother were treated by Warren Jeffs. He told about how he was one of 50 siblings and his father shunned him and tried to turn his other siblings against him by telling them he was a “bad” kid. Roy was also molested by Warren and he spoke about it, which was likely why he was ostracized.

For all of Warren’s efforts to demonize his son, at least some of his siblings knew the truth. Roy’s sister, Rachel, shared a Facebook post about her brother’s death. It was full of touching memories and comments about how proud she was of him for his courage, and how loving and fun he was.

I’ve done a fair amount of reading about the FLDS. I haven’t read anything recently about the sect, mainly because I’ve kind of lost interest in Mormonism lately and have been reading about other things. Also, I no longer have the stamina for reading that I once had. Nowadays, I start reading and soon fall asleep, even when what I’m reading is excellent. I don’t remember reading about Roy, although almost every book about the FLDS has a lot of information about Warren, who continues to rule the roost even from his prison cell at Utah State Prison.

I don’t often wish death on people, but I think Warren Jeffs is one of those folks who is just very dangerous. I don’t know if I think he should be executed, but I do think the world would be a better place without him in it. He’s damaged so many people.

I hope wherever Roy is now, he’s in peace. It sounds like he really suffered during his brief time down here on Earth. I remember being 26. Life was just getting started for me. It’s hard to believe that was 20 years ago… on the other hand, I was 26 when depression was at its worst for me. I can’t judge Roy for his last action. There’s just no telling what he’s been through. May he rest easy now.

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